raven
Gibberling
Posts: 17
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Post by raven on Jun 30, 2015 12:37:51 GMT
I have noticed that several women here seem to enjoy NPC romance mods. A topic after my own heart. Especially as my husband and I have been working on our first NPC mod for Baldur’s Gate: EE for some time now. I am always interested in reading about what sparks interest for people in NPC romance mods, but I have noticed more written reactions from male players than from female. Perhaps I have been looking in the wrong places. Love and attraction are such personal things. What makes one person go weak in the knees may be the very thing that makes another grimace. I’d love to hear about what it was that made you fall in love with one character, or find another personally unappealing. Is your idea of the perfect NPC suitor the guy next door type, the dark brooder, the hands off paladin, the bad boy, or something else. Do you like him to chase you, or do you prefer to do the chasing. Do you like the happy ending, or the tragedy? Do you prefer your romance PG rated, or a little spicy. Is there something that you have always wished to have included in a romance mod, but just never really found? Of course gentlemen who like to play a female protagonist are most welcome to add their perspectives too. It’s just that I have not seen as many female opinions as I have male. Thank you for your time, ladies and gentlemen.
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Lingz
Gibberling
Posts: 38
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Post by Lingz on Jul 1, 2015 0:35:44 GMT
I'm pretty much an omnivore in regards to male romance but really picky when it comes to female romance. For the former my main concern is mutual interest. If the potential romance isn't interested or does the I'm not good for you routine I tend to loose interest rather quickly. A decent lesson from Bioware. If he says he's not interested he will probably crush your heart later, so spare yourself the pain and just let it goooo. Chasing or being chased doesn't really matter, only that it feels wanted. (I want you to want me - By Cheap Thrills describes my general desire. Except for the bit about begging and crying...) As for types, I'm pretty open to everything, but I do like the perverted gentleman. A nice person who is also a bit flirty (or very flirty can be fun as well). Chaste paladins can be fun, but I like basking in attention so the flirty type is usually the one I go after. (Video games are power fantasies in my eyes and it's easy to feel powerful when everyone says you're great). And Jerks can be hilariously fun when encased in text instead of flesh and bone. But as mentioned before, open to anything and my tastes depend on the alignment of the stars and the general mood. As for type I've never really found: I would like to try the proper evil type. Not the, I'm evil because society made me so or fix me with your goodness, but hey: I like killing and stealing, I'm not looking to get "fixed" but I'd like some company. As for the endings. I generally prefer the happy endings, the they lived happily ever after stuff. If the romance is really good I don't mind sad endings, but I prefer it if they are hinted during the romance. To be informed if there is a sickness or a chance of assassination later on. Or that if there is a problem with the relationship power dynamic that it's noted in the last few conversation. This is mostly because I dislike TOB and I hate TOBs final fight with a burning passion. I usually ctrl Y it, but if I really like the npc I'll fight fair. So being slapped with "The relationship that was going fairly well ends abruptly because the LI jumped in front of a speeding bullet/arrow or was poisoned or suddenly got sick of the relationship and left" really makes me angry. (Google" The Office no no no" for a fairly accurate visual). I will like glare at the screen and dislike the mod for a whole day if that happens. (It's been two or three years since I played that mod and I'm still annoyed by it.) As for spiciness: The more the merrier. I like cheesy, cliched romance, but serious low profile romance can be nice to. Depends on the mod I suppose? And for female romance, I have to really like the character in general to go for it. Those can be quite rewarding, but it has to be the one. Hope this helped in some manner. (I might edit this when my shame breaks free (and if I catch an awkward misspelling), but for now, bask in my brain matter! (And I'm sorry if this causes any pain.)) Oh and please tell more about your Npc mod when it's ready. New stuff is always fun.
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raven
Gibberling
Posts: 17
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Post by raven on Jul 1, 2015 9:00:18 GMT
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Lingz
Gibberling
Posts: 38
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Post by Lingz on Jul 1, 2015 12:17:05 GMT
Hey neat, I saw him earlier this year! I was worried you had stopped developing him, so I'm happy he's still going strong. I will definitely try a playthrough with him when he comes out. And a big plus to the dwarven npc idea, even if it must be tucked away for now.
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raven
Gibberling
Posts: 17
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Post by raven on Jul 2, 2015 9:53:53 GMT
The mod’s development is still very much alive. As this is our first attempt at modding, the learning curve was very steep for us starting out. Development, slow but steady as we have learned how to do things. Again, thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts. It is nice to see that there may be a few people interested in trying a mod with the type of content that I had always wanted for my own game. I promise you, we have no intention of dropping the development of this mod. As for releasing further mods to the public, it will depend on if anyone likes the first one. We will make them for ourselves, none the less.
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Post by Vyrulisse on Jul 3, 2015 21:09:00 GMT
Choices. That's my main desire in a romance mod. I'd love to have choices in how the romance goes exactly. Will it be purely sexual or something sweet and lovely, or just an amalgamation of both?
Will *I* the player be deciding how it goes or will the other party be wooing me? It's very complicated, but that's what I like. I don't like romances where you feel like you're on a rail to either friendship, enemies or true love. A winding road is something I enjoy.
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raven
Gibberling
Posts: 17
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Post by raven on Jul 3, 2015 22:22:40 GMT
I agree, the more choices the better! Unfortunately, one of the lessons that I have had to learn during this process is that each small choice adds up. It is possible to end up with a monster that you can’t handle. I certainly had to get realistic in that respect. Each choice is one more thread to write, keep track of, make sure you have carried out appropriately to the end of the mod. Test and retest. It goes on and on. I now have a much better understanding of why the number of choices are always limited, whether in a professionally developed game, or a mod.
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Post by Vyrulisse on Jul 4, 2015 3:08:28 GMT
Yeah, that's why I said it's very complicated hehe. One can dream though.
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cania
Gibberling
Posts: 6
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Post by cania on Jul 4, 2015 9:52:09 GMT
Hey, nice looking mod! I think the best way I can answer your question is to give examples of romances I enjoyed and romances I didn't enjoy.
In no particular order - spoilers below...
- NWN2/MotB: Bishop mod (with the Casavir flirts/banter) I loved everything about this. Bishop was a complicated character and his romance was beautifully written, a little sexy and plenty of fun. I only ever play the 'tragic' ending (where he rots in the wall) because I find it most fitting for his character. His betrayal made sense so I like to keep it broken and my character usually ends up with Gann in the long term (I enjoy the witty banter and approval for skills like persuade which I usually invest heavily in). Being able to move on in the expansion was nice.
However, I did not enjoy...
- NWN2 - Unmodded Casavir The romance comes from nowhere and he has nothing to say. I swear if I hear "Old Owl Well" one more time! The default paladin for BG2 was equally awful, so terrible I have forgotten his name. Oops!
I HATED...
- Dragon Age 2 - Fenris I liked this fine until he pinned Hawke against the wall and it ended in sex. No. No no no. I hated that it was never addressed. After being the girl against the wall IRL I do not want that to pop up and ignored for being problematic. He also abruptly abandons you for a while. The whole thing was just... meh. A lot of people did love this, though. I think it just struck a nerve with me.
However, I LOVED....
- NWN ADwR - Vico Another evil character. He blatantly rapes the PC at the start of the game but you have the option of responding however you wish, even killing him or simply asking for an apology. You can forgive him or not. You can play the naive princess or use your sexuality to control him. Anything goes, I like that level of control. I also enjoy how everyone notices how insane he is and you are warned away from him several times. He's not someone you'd go near IRL but it makes for an interesting story.
Otherwise I enjoy "fun" romances (Zevran, Isabella, Robert Black), cuties (Merrill, Cullen, Valen), slightly crazy dramas (Jack from ME2, Anders - again you could call him on his insanity or be blindly devoted as you wished) and dorks (Garrus, Tali). My favourite BG mod was Xan, his 'bonded' path was really sad but really well written. Solaufein was nicely written but a bit soppy for me. I found Tsuajatha a bit 'perfect' for my taste. Tall, strong, powerful, sexy, blah blah... I guess I like characters with some flaws. That said it's not a bad mod by any means, just not for me.
The main thing I enjoy is lots of chats and options to flirt. The romances I enjoy least are the ones where they just suddenly declare their love, you say 'ok' and nothing happens until you get a brief line about getting married or something at the end on the game.
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raven
Gibberling
Posts: 17
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Post by raven on Jul 4, 2015 14:42:43 GMT
Thank you for the kind words about our little mod. I find myself wishing that I had played the Dances with Rouges mod back when I played NWN. I confess that my initial reaction is puzzlement. I wouldn’t have guessed that a mod containing a rape would be popular among women. Yet if other women like the mod, there must be something about this character beyond the initial rape that they find compelling. I would love to hear more about just what it was about him that drew you in. I can see this as an interesting story hook in a fantasy setting. A gritty world that the innocent protagonist is thrown into. Especially if the player has the option to end his miserable life afterwards. I do understand the appeal of the player being given many options as to how she wants to deal with the situation, but I’m still puzzled by the romance part. If I am understanding this correctly, the protagonist can choose to pursue a romance with him? What is it about him that makes him a compelling romance option after such a violent start? Does the protagonist have the chance to change him? Is it that ultimately, the tables are turned and she is the one with all the power? Does he fall in love with her? Or is it simply the appeal of being able to step into a brutal world within the safety of a video game. So many questions. I share your preference for flirty banter and flawed characters. The lack of much build up in the romances contained in both the base Baldur’s Gate games and the ones introduced with the EE Editions, have always left me feeling less involved with the characters than I would have liked. Why should I fall in love with someone who has given me so little indication that they care for me? Of course, some feel that less is better. Let the player fill in all the blanks for themselves. Though I can certainly respect that point of view, I don’t often find myself satisfied with such limited interaction. Thank you for taking the time to post your opinions. I do truly appreciate having the opportunity to hear from other women about what they find appealing in their games.
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raven
Gibberling
Posts: 17
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Post by raven on Jul 4, 2015 20:13:37 GMT
My curiosity about this mod compelled me to look up a let’s play of it this morning. I now think that perhaps my questions above aren’t really relevant. I was thinking it was more of a romance mod. After the little I saw, I would tend to think of it more in terms of perhaps erotica. Ah well, now I know.
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cania
Gibberling
Posts: 6
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Post by cania on Jul 4, 2015 21:12:02 GMT
*Spoilers for ADWR and Dragon Age 2* The first part of ADWR is basically porn, the 'romances' kick in when you start part 2 As for Vico, he is really obsessed with the PC... I'm not sure if love is the right word for that. There are fan theories that he lies about his initial motive for being in the castle and he was actually sort of stalking the princess before she even knew he existed. His romance script in part 2 is very controlling. He constantly wants to touch and taste her but they never really seem to talk aside from him calling her beautiful or checking up on her. Honestly I enjoy the opportunity to play a PC character who, when thrown into darkness, cracks under pressure. My princess ultimately took Vico as her partner as a way of making sense of what happened to her. If he loved her all along she can attempt to justify what happened. He keeps her safe and makes her feel loved in a warped way, she doesn't have anything else left so she clings to him. I play my Anders romance in a similar way, with a Hawke who is so grateful for him helping her brother in the deep roads compounded by the painful death of her family that she is pushed to wanting to see him as perfect so she isn't forced away from the last bit of happiness in her life. There's nothing he could do that she wouldn't find a way to justify so when he gets trigger happy she stands beside him without question. Vico also justifies the princess' own actions. After joining the guild she does some awful things, but if she can forgive the violent, awful things he does then she can live with being a thief and an assassin herself. There is an alternate path if you don't score enough points with Vico where you can seduce him and make him kiss your feet at such. I can see the appeal in the reversal of power. Unfortunately if you score enough points then refuse him he will try to rape you a second time (really), where you are saved by the "white knight" character, Bran. I ran the Bran romance that way once at it is sort of nice to see the suffering PC ride off into the sunset but I kind of enjoyed watching her break more. It's probably important to note that I was in a similar relationship to the Vico/Princess dynamic with an older man at 16 - I think part of me finds it cathartic. Maybe I just like RP drama Funnily enough my partner IRL is most like Alistair from Dragon Age, yet I've never been able to see that romance through. The relationship I want (and have!) in real life is the complete opposite to the ones I want on my screen. Is it off topic for me to ask what some of your favourite romances were?
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raven
Gibberling
Posts: 17
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Post by raven on Jul 5, 2015 9:57:47 GMT
Thank you cania. That gives me a much better picture of what the mod has to offer. I really enjoyed reading about how you have roll-played your characters. What you said about your real life relationship being different than what you like in a game made me smile. I feel the same. My real life husband is a sweetheart. More spoilers for Dragon Age below. I guess the most recent one for me is Dragon Age: Inquisition’s Blackwall. I liked the rough around the edges feel of him, and the fact that he was up front about his feelings for the PC. That line in the beginning where he said something like, “Is there anything heavy you need lifted?” made me smile and got my attention. I had originally planed to romance Cullen in that play-through, but Blackwall caught my attention first. Of course, it doesn’t hurt that he has a beard. Love me a man with a beard. I also liked his story. A flawed man who had done some dark things in the past but was trying to make up for it. Rebuild himself. When push came to shove, he tried to do the right thing. But then I’m a sucker for redemption type themes. I also like the fact that his fate was ultimately in the PCs hands. I have enjoyed several of the romance mods for Baldur’s Gate II, for varying reasons. Kelsey, a very detailed mod with lots of dialogue. I enjoyed this one very much the first time, but probably won’t play it again as I really prefer a rougher character than the boy next door type. Xan’s romance from the BGI NPC project made me laugh a lot. I haven’t tried the BGII part yet. Coran, also from the BGI NPC project. I like the fact that he is such a flirt, but start to cringe a bit at how often he mentions the other women he has bedded. My protagonist has too much self respect to put up with that for long. One of my favorites is Aeryn’s Haer’Dalis Romance mod. Even though I have only been able to complete it to a point just after coming out of the Underdark. Too much of my free time lately has been taken up with modding. I am also looking forward to trying her Sarevok Romance mod. I like her style. I would love to see her do an original NPC mod. I most like romances where the man is imperfect, obvious in his interest for the protagonist, and passionate, whether it’s in a mod, movie or book. A little humor is also a big draw for me. As for my least favorite. Perhaps what I tend to think of as the “Gotcha” moment of the Alistair romance in Dragon Age: Origins. Either you make him sleep with someone else or he dies… Jeeezzz I hated that.
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Post by Shades of Night on Jul 5, 2015 12:20:46 GMT
Romances! Hooray! <3 I will admit that the first thing for me is appearance. I will almost instantly be attracted to a character if he has nice long or semi-long or just plain pretty hair That being said I've also played and enjoyed plenty of romances with characters that I wouldn't normally find attractive, too. I think listing a few tends to show the trends of what I like/dislike well... I dislike Bishop in NWN2 because I'm the type to hold a grudge and keep it (same reason I tried ADWR and instantly wanted to kill Vico and just never really got int the mod). Only my nicest characters deviate from this, and things don't usually end well for them... I found Kaidan in ME1 plain boring, likewise Jacob in ME2 was also rather dull and had that odd line delivery from femshep. Vega seemed like your regular muscle-man and so didn't interest me at all in ME3. Absolutely couldn't stand Anomen because of how much of an arrogant ass he was, I just wanted to stomp him into the dirt every time he opened his mouth. I like Thane in ME2 despite the whole dead wife and kid horse being beaten again, his terminal condition (though there should have been a chance for a cure if you worked for it or sacrificed something), occupation and religious beliefs all made him quite an interesting character, though there weren't many romance specific conversations. Valen in NWN:HotU is what I consider a good example of the LI not getting along with you at first but changing over time. There was distrust and suspicion but not so much that it made me want to toss him out a window. The teasing banter that you can have with Carth in Kotor 1 was nice, and I wish Atton in Kotor 2 had a proper romance, he had great potential. I loved Gannayev from NWN2:MtB, arrogant and vain but not in a grating way like Anomen, though I really wish his in-game model looked as pretty as his portrait. I also really like Haer'Dalis' character along with the romance mod he finally got, and am always yearning for a different take on a Solaufein romance mod (because his current one isn't to my tastes). And I liked Rizdaer in IWD2 and Kivan in his BG2 mod, though a number of the player dialogue options were a bit odd. So! One thing I've noticed a lot in recent game romances is... the LI doesn't pursue you unless you specifically go for them first. Which sometimes means having to choose ridiculous flirting options... I prefer to have a mix depending on what suits the NPC best. Some should pursue my PC first, others might not show any interest unless my PC shows it first. I'm not really sure if I can pin down a specific type I prefer as it tends to vary depending on the type of character I'm playing. For endings I go for very vague and open-ended. So not too much is specified and it's pretty much left up to me to decide what happened. That way if I want things to end in a horribly tragic manner it's my choice. Speaking of which, if there are things which will cut off the relationship or cause the NPC to dump my character I do like to have the option to get angry at them about it and, more importantly, to hold a grudge against them for it that lasts for the rest of the game Lastly, I agree on liking choices, even if they're just cosmetic choices that don't actually change much and simply give the illusion of different options and a slightly different response. And as Cania mentioned lots of content in the form of both chats and flirts is great, games tend to be sparse on specific romance content and talks these days.
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raven
Gibberling
Posts: 17
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Post by raven on Jul 7, 2015 23:12:01 GMT
At the risk of bringing the forum gods down on my head, or maybe even having my “womanhood card” revoked, I am one of the few people who found something to like about Anomen. (Dons her rubber boots in preparation for the lightening bolts.) Now this is in spite of the fact that in my first game, he put me off so badly that I didn’t even take him into my party. It was only after I had read that he was a female PC’s one and only chance for a romance, that I begrudgingly pretended that I was not immediately offended by his manner and took him into the party. I’m glad I did. I was impressed by the insight you were allowed to gain about why he was the way he was. I really liked the scene with his father. In the end, he struck me as more believable then some of the other NPCs. I did, at times, feel that his brash manner was carried a bit to far. The PC was not given the chance to call him on his bull. I think that’s a shame. I understand completely why many players came to hate him for it. Still, I believed his story, believed his character, saw his vulnerable side. I cared what happened to him. It is always interesting to me how people can see a character so differently from one another. My take on the man was always so different from how most people perceived him. I see all his arrogant boasting as a defense mechanism. I see him as a man who, on the inside, is longing for acceptance and love. I feel that if this man ever got what he really needed from a woman he would be at her feet. As much as I enjoyed what was done to flesh out his romance with the NPC Flirt pack, again, my take on the man was obviously different from that of the writer who extended his romance. For instance, in one flirt conversation the PC has the option to try to get “frisky” with him and he chastises her for it. Something like, “not the time and place” pushing her hands away, type thing. In my own cannon view of him, if the PC flirted with him or offered sex, there is no way he would turn her down. He might stiffen a bit, feel a bit nervous, embarrassed, if others are watching, but he is far to weak a character to ever turn down this woman that offers what he so desperately wants and needs in his life. He is desperate for approval, acceptance and love. I would have liked for my protagonist to have had the opportunity to cut through all that arrogant pretence of his. Alas, she never really got the chance. David Gaider has said that he didn’t know Anomen was going to be a romance option when he wrote the character. I would have loved to see what he would have done differently with him if he had known, and had the time to develop him as one from the beginning. Shades of Night, mentioned wishing for a different take on Solaufein. I would like that as well. I wonder though. Do you think that there is a reluctance by modders to take on a project like this when it has already been done by someone else? I don’t remember ever seeing a second mod done for any character that has already been expanded.
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