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Post by Songlian on Apr 2, 2014 10:25:20 GMT
...you know someone will bring it up sooner or later. Here's a new Vico fanart to start the thread. One of the best renditions of the guy, if you ask me.
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Post by deina on Apr 3, 2014 14:00:29 GMT
So, I'm suffering from sleeplessness and after a quick tour on the Demonheart series (in anticipation of Chapter 2) I started ADWR again. There's a lot of people complaining about the sexual content, namely - that the Princess is exploited on regular basis and it cannot be avoided. My current playthrough serves the purpose of proving my theory that rough sex can be avoided altogether if you wish to do so. Of course, there is one constant element: Vico raping the Princess. No way to escape that. If you wish to avenge Caron, you've got to sleep with Jero Fetton, but again, revenge is optional. Usually, if you are smart and rely on your skills, sex is avoidable. That stands for many crucial points in the game quoted by criticists: gladiators, the castle, orc's camp, not to mention sailors:) Of course there's still the harsh language, skimpy clothes and running around naked thing, so if you are offended by that, better try another game:) I've got a problem with ADWR though. Your choices and actions do not influence what others think about you. You can sell yourself to sailors or be a total prude, it doesn't matter, you can masterfully achieve every goal or cry every step of the way - it doesn't matter either. The game (and people around you) simply won't recognize it. Even if you completed every lesson before Tony the Tiger quest, you are still patronized as a weak, inexperienced and timid school-girl. Look, she killed an orc! All by herself! O my! Some more elaborate dialogue options will be nice sometimes. Something more than "shrug", "smile", "giggle" or "blush". A possibility to stand for yourself. Still, I love ADWR and it remains one of my all-time favorites. I am very sorry that Valine disappeared from the community and chances for an update of chapter 2 are next to none:(
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Post by Magpie on Apr 3, 2014 14:50:38 GMT
The idea of rape does bother me a lot. >:U
I mean forceful sex, fine. But being basically treated as a "lowly woman" with no opportunity to earn respect or even covet a smidgen of dignity? Ehh...
I will try it to see if I can get the experience for myself before I judge. A lot of people had straight up refused to play tomb-raider because of the alleged "rape" scene, when no rape actually happened (just a guy who grabs her and looks like he's about to kiss her?) and rape itself is FAR more graphic in movies, nobody complains about those. AND THE NEW TOMB RAIDER WAS AMAZING FOR FEMINISM. So, it really sucks that a lot of people shunned it for that reason. So I'm gonna give DWR a try and see what I think before I personally clasify it. I keep going back to this, but a lot of people hated the Tsujatha mod or were overly critical, and I personally liked it. So maybe this is another one of those.
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Post by Songlian on Apr 4, 2014 7:55:52 GMT
I am very sorry that Valine disappeared from the community and chances for an update of chapter 2 are next to none:( I am so bummed about that. The second part promised a romance with Simon. I liked him. About the unavoidable Vico rape. It never bothered me because I like the bastard. I know how weird that sounds, but after all this is only a game.
And I think Valine meant for the rape to happen no matter what. It's part of the tragedy that makes the hero's journey. Sort of like Cousland's parents dying, the ADWR princess looses her kingdom and gets abused in the process.
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Post by deina on Apr 4, 2014 20:47:07 GMT
Maybe the thing that bothers people is not only rape, but rape AND Vico as a future love interest for the Princess. It seems so morally wrong for a girl to fell in love with a guy that basically shattered her world in pieces. It's clear that Vico was intented to be the default romance in ADWR - falling for him makes the Princess even more vulnerable and lost and pitiful that she already was. In other words, avoiding and hating Vico is a path for a Princess who gradually becomes a strong individual, one who overcomes her fears. Falling for him is a failure; choosing protection and dependance over freedom and self awareness. The Princess is like an useful tool in this scenario, a puppet in the game of thrones and life alike. I do not necessarily agree with this, just wondering what bothers people most. Because I actually like this guy, too:)
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Post by Songlian on Apr 5, 2014 8:34:54 GMT
Maybe the thing that bothers people is not only rape, but rape AND Vico as a future love interest for the Princess. And developing on that, I think what bothers people even more is that not only he is romanceable, but that his romance is practically the most developed in the game. Basically, you either romance the man who raped you, or you lose an important part of the story. Man, I am so reinstalling ADWR after finishing with this post. Because let's face it, none of the other romances are even close to Vico's. Anden - don't get me started on him, he's as boring as watching grass grow; and he disappears on you at one point Bran - nice and sweet... but way less screen time Rizzen - even less screen time! like in the final 5th of the game? but I do like this romance a lot! Pia - ok, she might be competition for Vico when it comes to content and significance, but she caters to a specific segment of players... So in the end, it's kinda clear Valine liked the guy, too. Which can bother people... Doesn't bother me, though.
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Post by Songlian on Apr 5, 2014 10:41:27 GMT
Sorry for the double post. I stumbled upon this: A DANCE WITH SPIES! It's not made by Valine, but it says it's a tribute to Valine and that the stories connect. I am so giving this a try!
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Post by deina on Apr 5, 2014 15:57:33 GMT
I just finished the first part of ADWR and so far my theory is proven right: unconsensual and violent sex is totally avoidable. I remember that one poster on P&T complained about the brutal scene in the castle. Well, few words of advice if you want to save yourself some trouble:
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Do the 7th lesson last. Maximize your experience to be a pretty decent rouge at the time you enter the castle. You can give your princess one fighter level to have access to martial weapons (I always do:) Prepare yourself before knocking. Knock. Enter. Attack the pervert guys via dialogue BEFORE they take you to their boss. Kill both of them. Enter stealth mode. Proceed in the courtyard and then in the castle. Pick some weapons on your way to arm Anden later. Pick the lock on his cell, free him, accept his help. Sneak out. Try not to bump into anybody. It can be done, but sometimes Anden is too clumsy:) You can keep a potion of invisibility (Alchemist, North Betancuria) handy and give it to him or fight your way out. Sneak out of the castle, avoiding the dogs. Done. No nasty scene, no rape, only two guys to dispatch:)
Now, the Dhorn Spies quest. Again, the nasty gangrape is avoidable as well. The ticket vendor in the Arena will direct you to Sharita. Before you find her up in the Lion's Inn, arm yourself with powerful thieves' tools and some potions. Talk to Sharita and ask her to arrange a date with the gladiators. Persuade, intimidate or bluff - it is always a good thing to add some conversational skill points on every level. You will find yourself with a single guy in a closed room. Don't ask him to see the gladiator or you are screwed. Attack him via dialogue. Kill him. Enter stealth mode, sneak out, go to Master Nathan and return with a big party for a fight. Again, nothing bad happened. From your point of view anyway, the killed guys would probably disagree;)
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Post by notabarbiegirl on Apr 6, 2014 16:18:09 GMT
I have read and participated in some of the debates about Vico.
The kicker of the entire 1st face to face with him is in your dialogue choices. Just to test the point on one of my play throughs, I took the "easy path" with him and submitted fully at the 1st chance. Something I would never do in real life. You actually can get out of the brutal part of the rape AND the dialogue for that tree actually leans more tword an agreement of sex for your life being saved. Still unsavory in my book, but if the princess willingly agrees, then walks out not beat up,and fully clothed, it is the lesser evil.
That makes the Vico romance to seem more acceptable, and his actions if you move in with Tony. I have played a character all the way through; who only had sex with Vico and Tony. This included part 2.
I have also played a princess that fought him tooth, and nail, had the stuffing beat out of her, was cut on the neck, raped , then knocked out and deposited on Master Nathans floor naked. She hated Vico with a passion and vengance was hers at every opportunity. The only romance I have not played is Pia, she is always the Best friend, love you like a sister. Just my choice, I fault no one for their game or life choices.
I usually end up a Rouge/ Bard or Rouge/Shadow-dancer by part 2. I only had 1 princess be the disgusting guinea pig, and I used Valiens creation Lyanna ( sp?) for that, yep my girls were kept much safer than her girl.
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Post by Magpie on Apr 10, 2014 19:22:20 GMT
SO I STARTED ADWR
It started off being really unappealing, due to the unavoidable rape scene. What? I don't know him, and dammit I'm a princess! Of course I didn't want to submit to him willingly! I went through the game and was kind of creeped out by how "open" the NPC's are. I mean, this isn't medieval style game play anymore. These people are straight up. I have to take a second and admire the detail in the mod... It is QUITE extensive. However, I feel like it's out of place here. Do we really need 60 different lingerie options? Do we really?
**************SPOILERS BELOW!!!!!!!!!!!********** ...But after finishing the lessons, I can kind of see why Vico did it. That doesn't make him any more attractive to me, but his reasoning is there. He was really hurt and the Family really hates the king and his family because while they're at war, it's the people who suffer the most. While royalty is in the castle, people are raiding, raping, torturing, stealing. It's chaos, and it's completely ignored. Thy don't have anything to do with the Dhorn attacking, and when they do, they still harbour that contempt. Now introduce the powder keg in this concoction...Vico.
Vico has a girlfriend in the palace. No, she just works there. She's no one "special" or high ranking, but I get the feeling he had really deep feelings for her. The Dhorn attack at full force and kill everyone in the castle. His girlfriend is dead. He's not mad at the Dhorn, he's mad at *you*. Because if it wasn't for the nobles turning a blind eye to everyone below them, she would still be alive. It's your fault she's dead, and now he's going to take something from you that you "cherish", too. Now, you're like everyone else.
And if it wasn't for Vico, the princess would have never had the chance to grow as a person. She has the chance to be somebody she WANTS to be now. They even give you MANY chances to leave... I never did. Because as the princess, I learned something.
Vico is a badguy, and he knows that. It isn't a stretch to have raped the princess, coming from him. He's not a knight in shining armor, he's the shadow of that man.
BUT I STILL DON'T LIKE HIM YET IM SORRY I WANT TO CUT HIS BALLS OFF
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Post by Songlian on Apr 11, 2014 14:52:29 GMT
Once upon a time... I wrote a lengthy Vico post on P&T. It got lots of approval from the members of the defunct forum, so I'm going to copy/paste it here in case someone is suffering from insomnia at one point and needs to read something.
PS: I swear I don't think about this guy as much as it looks. Like really. Totally.
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Post by Magpie on Apr 11, 2014 16:27:02 GMT
Once upon a time... I wrote a lengthy Vico post on P&T. It got lots of approval from the members of the defunct forum, so I'm going to copy/paste it here in case someone is suffering from insomnia at one point and needs to read something. PS: I swear I don't think about this guy as much as it looks. Like really. Totally. XD, I feel like your post is really insightful and eye-opening, I definitely agree with everything except maybe this part here. I really don't think he recognized the princess per se, (granted I haven't played through the mod yet) but I think you're right about the "wanting to take something away" bit. He definitely wanted to put a scar on the princess' pretty life.
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Post by notabarbiegirl on Apr 13, 2014 13:13:08 GMT
In part 2 is where Vico can become " a better man" cough.
It is all in how he is handled. If you make some tender hearted and reply nicely to him he has the ability to turn fluffy bunny when no one else is around. Oh if he level up during the save the keep option he will suddenly stop leveling up as a Blackguard, and take fighter levels instead, that is after Nathan tell you Vico is letting you decide what to do about Arto. He also can be your submissive if if take the reigns, take off my boots, kiss my feet, beg nicely ( I am not joking here) he can also be the dominate if you let him. Valine put a ton of work into the facets of Vico. Either way he is still pissed that the Dorhn killed his baby.
I still like Bran better for my good girl Princess though.
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Post by Vyrulisse on Apr 14, 2014 3:12:35 GMT
A Dance With Rogues is really one of my favorite adult-oriented mods for any game. She truly did a remarkable job. On the subject of Vico, I really, REALLY hated him at first and let it be known how I planned to gut him at the first opportunity to anyone who would listen so that night in the Dwarven Inn, I got a bit of a weird satisfaction out of turning him into a slobbering mess of what used to be a man.
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Post by Magpie on Apr 14, 2014 19:48:28 GMT
A Dance With Rogues is really one of my favorite adult-oriented mods for any game. She truly did a remarkable job. On the subject of Vico, I really, REALLY hated him at first and let it be known how I planned to gut him at the first opportunity to anyone who would listen so that night in the Dwarven Inn, I got a bit of a weird satisfaction out of turning him into a slobbering mess of what used to be a man. Same here. XD I mostly did it because I was thinking "You know, I'm probably not going to do this in my next run through, so why the hell not" and he surprised me.
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